JR: Once they [actors] have found it to their comfort in rehearsal and I asked them, specifically, "Are you okay? Do you feel good?" "Yeah, I'm fine." Mark 'em, light them. Go study your lines and we'll do a take. In Shelley's case, she came back and she said, after having been marked and lit, and I had Lucien Ballard, who was one of the most wonderful photographers. But meticulous and since it's a feature film he always--the cameraman always takes time, as you know. Shelley said, "I'd like to stand on the other side." I said, "Why?" She said, "I don't know. I just feel like it." I said, "But a moment ago you felt like standing on this side." "Well, I’ve changed my mind." I said, "Shelley, I think it's a little dead. Unless there's a better reason for working on the other side, I'd prefer to stay this way." As I explained, with some reasonable as I thought, I said, "You know, it's been a two hour light, and we have five characters in the scene, or whatever, and if you move over there, everything has to be completely re-lit." Well, she gave in grumbling but I realized when she'd gone ten or eleven takes, and everybody else had done three or four all during the day, the previous days, I took her aside and I said, "What's happening?" She said, "George Cukor once went 94 takes with me in my first film." My jaw dropped and I said, "Well--" I looked up Cukor later. I said, "Why?" He said, "I'm sorry.” He said, “I foisted this person off on the industry and I regret it. It was not a good idea." I think it was A DOUBLE LIFE. Anyway, she was learning her lines. It was fakery. I want to stand over there so I can have more time to think about what I have to say. And she was difficult all through the piece, I must say. [INT: Let's talk about some--] Let me just finish my thought. Here's the ultimate irony. 'Cause I kept wondering, "Is it me? This woman has won Academy Awards. What am I doing wrong?" And I would look up other Directors. I talked to--I was at dinner with Guy Greene one night. I said, "How did it go on A PATCH OF BLUE with Shelley?" And he dropped his silverware and said, "Please. Don't talk during dinner. Don't mention that name." Carl Reiner called me when he was casting ENTER LAUGHING. He said, "I want to check with you. I know you worked with Shelley Winters. I'm casting her as the mother of Alan Arkin." I said, "Don't do it." He said, "Why? I've already done it." I said, "Carl, you'll regret it." He said, "Oh come on. How bad could it be?" Months later, he said, "You know what she did? One day I needed a reaction shot of the mother sitting in the audience." And Carl said, "I will play the off-stage parts because -- look left, look right. This is a comic moment, this a serious." And Carl is a great mimic and a great Actor. What could be better? Shelley said, "No, I've got to have the whole cast." And Carl said, "The cast has been dismissed. This is just a close-up reaction." She said, "I can't do it without the cast." And Carl, who never loses his temper at anybody. [Yells] "I'm gonna put in what I've got! That's it! I'm finished." You know, and so it's not uncommon and I went to Hal Wallis, my Producer at the time, and I said, after she'd really given me grief the first couple of days. I said, "Can't we fire her?" He said, "Look.” He said, “She's working very cheap and you'll get what you need." You know what? He was right. She got the best reviews of the picture. Do you know why? She had the most film, and in my cutting room, what am I gonna do? [INT: She got the most attention.] She got the most attention and I have monstrous number of choices, you always make the better choice. Janet Leigh and Van Johnson had come to me, equally, on the first couple of days and said, "You know, we're getting tired. I hope you don't print just because she gets one right. We're tired." I said, "No, I'll watch out for you." And I did. It was tough.

INT: You have done--worked in all kinds of media. Any shift in consciousness between your role as a Director, directing films, versus your role as a Director doing the comedy shows? Not the drama shows, but the comedy shows? I’m curious.
JR: There's no difference in comedy or drama, for me at least. [INT: Okay.] The only difference is you get better attention from the property department when you're making a film. Especially at Paramount [Paramount Pictures Corporation]. You know, they were all trained in the Cecil B. DeMille mode. Joe Youngerman, our dear Joseph, Executive Secretary for so many years of our Guild [Directors Guild of America], Joe had been a prop man and he used to talk about how DeMille had his own chair man. Did you know that? When DeMille would never look around when he decided to sit. He would sit. And god forbid, if there wasn't a chair under him. There was a guy that followed him around with a chair! I mean, this is outrageous. You know, the sacred bottom must not touch the ground. And there was a chair there as he sat. But, unbelievable.

INT: So, the experience of film for you is there’s a different kind of sense of timing and also different length of your investment in terms of time? That’s a shift.
JR: That is an enormous difference. [INT: Well, talk about that.] Although I--well, I always--I must say I bit my bridle any number of times thinking about the length of time it took to rehearse lighting. That drove me crazy. I wanted more time with the Actors, we never got it on a feature. I would get that time when I was doing the live stuff because I had my three days. And that was so comfortable that the mechanics just fell into position. I’ll tell you an interesting story about mechanics though, when I was assigned ALL IN THE FAMILY, or I agreed to do it, I told you that story didn’t I? The same day, I was freelancing, I’d finished filming. I didn't want to do any more pictures frankly, I had had my fill of the Hal Wallis unit. And I received two scripts as a freelance Director. One was for MARY TYLER MOORE [THE MARY TYLER MOORE SHOW], Jim Brooks [James L. Brooks] and Allan Burns had written for THE MARY TYLER MOORE SHOW. The same day I got Norman Lear's script for ALL IN THE FAMILY. I read them both and I said, “Oh my goodness.” I said, “This ALL IN THE FAMILY will never get on the air with this language.” But I called Brooks and I called Mary, and I said, “You know, Mary we’ve worked together on DICK VAN DYKE [THE DICK VAN DYKE SHOW] very successfully and I know that the script you’ve got is wonderful. You have a good series. I’ve gotta try this other thing. Even though I don’t think it’ll be on the air I’ve gotta--it’s an exercise but I’ll tell you--but please, will you have me back after--because this thing will fail very quickly and I’d like to come back but I can’t do it right now.” And she said, “Okay.” Well, you know, the rest is history. We went on fearlessly experimenting with ALL IN THE FAMILY stuff because none of us believed it would get on.

INT: Let’s talk about this issue of taking risks. [JR: Yeah.] Do you think that as a personality trait as something necessary for us as Directors? [INT: Yeah.] And how does one get the confidence to take the risk?
JR: By taking the risk it gives you more confidence. [INT: Go on.] You have to--well, I was a risk taker going way back to my college days. I told you about--we’ve talked about basketball when I said, “I’ll be a basketball announcer,” I’ve never seen a game. When they told me you can do GUNSMOKE but you’ve never seen a western, I said, “Okay.” And I’ll learn on the job or actually contribute something that they weren’t aware of. And I’ve talked about that. Casting--didn’t I talk about casting in--[INT: In GUNSMOKE?] Pernell Roberts [Pernell Elven Roberts, Jr.], in GUNSMOKE? [INT: Yes, I think you did.] Yeah, I think I covered that. [INT: Yes, you did.] And when I was offered JOAN DAVIS as a film, three-camera film, my first one. I said, “I’ve never seen a three camera film, I come from live.” But when they offered the job I said, “I'll take it,” you know, “I’ll try it.” I didn’t think I would get anywhere but I did.

INT: So, what do you think is behind your willingness to be a risk taker?
JR: It's a fear of growing ever hungrier. You’ve got to eat. If there's a job, you take it. Yeah. It’s important to take a job but then later when--once I had secured a modicum of, and I’m talking about really basic living, I’m not talking about any large amounts of money, but once I had enough like to survive three or four months or sometimes weeks even, I could be a little more selective with the scripts. I wanted to do something that was different. I always wanted to say, “Let’s change the palette somehow and try something new.” Because I want to keep my interest up. I always managed to do that with different assignments. I mean, that’s why I went out and I did westerns because that’s what they had for five years. Did nothing but westerns. I did TWILIGHT ZONE [THE TWILIGHT ZONE] because Rod Serling asked me, if he had a comedy. Then I said, “Okay, I’ll--did a couple of those, which were kind of humorous. And DETECTIVE STORIES [THE DETECTIVE], I worked with Robert Taylor and who’s the other one? MARKHAM with Ray Milland. Wonderful old actors that had a series as cops and I enjoyed doing those. Sheldon Leonard, you know, had me do I SPY in addition to something else. [INT: Now, do you think--do you think that this--the issue of being someone who takes risks is something that you had engrained in you when you were small? So that you knew--I mean, most people do seek security in some fashion or other. I mean, that’s just people do.] That was my way of securing security. That’s an interesting comment. Secure, secure. No, I was looking for my own security, and I didn't know what I was doing I guess. I was just saying, “I’m gonna plunge into this and do the best I can and try to learn. If I don’t know something I will ask.” That’s something that’s very important for a young Director I think. Don't try to bluff. I would be on a set when they would use some term and I’d say, “What is that? What does that mean?” Or, “What's this lens? I don’t understand.” And then they would sometimes they try to trap you with the old Mitchell camera, they would--look through finder, and you’d have to learn that there is a flip on a 30mm lens that you had to change the finder and they like that if you caught it. But the only way to catch it is to be told in the first place why are you doing that? I haven’t seen that before. Why are you flipping that little knob? I don't know, I guess it's a kind of hubris in its own way, but I think a Director needs hubris. You’ve got to have the conviction that you’re gonna do it to your own taste and you can't be following road maps all the time.

INT: Now, you've watched other Directors work--[JR: Very seldom.] No--but no--[JR: Only when I was a Stage Manager.] But also as a Producer did you not then when you started producing?
JR: Oh, when I was a Producer I never watched them, I looked at their dailies. [INT: Got it but you wouldn’t go on the set?] I try not to. [INT: Got it.] In fact, I think I’ve--have I talked about Winkler [Henry Winkler] in that regard? Henry? [INT: In terms of the--] Well, he was my partner on MAC GUYVER and sometimes we would visit a set just to show the flag so to speak and see how things are going. And I’d always encourage him to get off quickly and leave quickly because the Director would be compromised and I would find--Actors would come to me and say, “Mr. Rich what shall I do?” I said, “What?” “Henry’s giving me notes and it’s contradictory to the Director.” I said, “I'll take care of it. Pay no attention. Do what the Director’s telling you.” I took Henry aside and I said, “Henry, you can't do that.” He said, “What am I doing?” I said, “You’re giving notes to actors.” He said, “But he was playing the scene wrong.” I said, “How do you know?” He said, “Well, I could see he was doing it wrong.” I said, “Unless you are there from the get go, unless you have seen the process by which he got to that particular performance, you don't know if it’s there or if it’s on the way to something else. I can’t tell you how many times as a Director I’ve said to an Actor, “That’s very good but have you thought about maybe adding this or extracting that? Let’s try another one.” I said, “The Director may be on the way to something that you don’t know and you're imposing yourself in the middle of a process that you have no right to do. If you want to direct come down and direct but you’ve got to do it all.” He said, “Well, how do you know when the guy’s doing it wrong?” I said, “In the dailies. And then--“ He said, “It’s too late.” I said, “No it’s not. You can always do a pick up the next day or you don’t hire that Director again. But the Director probably will find his or her way out of the patch if you leave them alone. You can’t involve yourself. [INT: You know, it's just changed so enormously--I don’t--I shouldn’t be talking too much but it’s changed so enormously. I mean--] It’s terrible. [INT: You know, I've been doing some contemporary TV like WEST WING [THE WEST WING] and in that particular thing--this is a guy who’s a brilliant Writer.] Oh, Sorkin [Aaron Sorkin]? Fabulous. [INT: But he comes running down to the set to watch a--the first or second rehearsal.] Oh god. [INT: And of course then has something to say. So, what happens--] But he says it through you at least? [INT: Oh no. No, he’ll runs up to--he’s so intense, he’ll run up and talk to the Actor and then run away.] That’s too bad. By the way the show is brilliant. It works. [INT: Of course, so you just get used to it, you know what I’m saying?]

INT: It becomes, you know, it’s like I’m curious when you said you had enough of the Hal Wallis [Hal B. Wallis], you know, working in that world because it becomes this is what it is--
JR: Wallis never interrupted me on a set. Not once. He would come down on the set and I would say, “Stop shooting.” I wouldn’t want him to look and he understood it. But then of course Wallis had worked already with crazy Directors. [INT: Curtiz?] He’d had Michael Curtiz. Did I tell you what Peter Ustinov once said about Michael Curtiz? [INT: No, but I’m willing to hear it.] It’s a great line. He said, “Michael Curtiz forgot every word of his native Hungarian without taking the trouble of replacing it with another language.” [INT: That’s great.] You’ve heard that? [INT: Oh, no, he was filled with malapropisms. I love them. Some of them were--] Well, it wasn’t just malaprop--it was just one day, you know, in day before there were unions and he was--he did a lot of Errol Flynn movies. He was coaching a--[INT: Sure, SEA HAWK [THE SEA HAWK] and--] Sword fight. That he was saying in his Hungarian accent, “No, no. No, Eric. No, no. You've got to lunch [lunge], you’ve got to lunch. Where is everybody going?” The whole crew went to lunch. He said, “Mr. Curtiz you called lunch.” He said, “No, no. I was talking about lunch with the rapier. No lunch.” [INT: That’s great. My favorite one is, “If I wanted an idiot to do it I would have done it myself.” That’s the one I that I think is one of his great ones.] Reminds me of DeMille [Cecil B. DeMille]. DeMille was on a crane once, huge city scene, block of houses, and he picked out an extra who was walking up to a house ringing the doorbell, not waiting, leaving coming back, doing the same thing house after house. Ringing doorbells and leaving. And DeMille stopped and picked--“You. You there. Why are you doing that?” And the extra said, “I'm the village idiot.” I don't think Mr. DeMille was amused. [INT: That’s great. I actually once did a collection of Curtiz--I have it somewhere--malapropisms because I was fascinated with him and he had hundreds.] I--there’s some that I won’t tell you. [INT: Well, I know one of the best ones of course was the one where he was, “Young lady what are you doing down there?”] Oh yeah. “How did you get in here?” That was even--[INT: Oh, that’s--mine was, “What are you doing down there?”] No, no, no. The great line is--because that’s too explicit. It was like, “Get away from here you dirty girl. How did you get in here?” They were in his dressing room with no top and the--all the carpenters were looking, watching the scene. But I love that. “How did you get in here?” [INT: That’s great. And so I’ve been telling it--this other version.] Well, you have the other one with the--but I can’t tell that one. [INT: Which one? Alright. We’ll turn off the camera. I want to hear it.] I’ll tell it to you later but it’s--[INT: During lunch we’re gonna get this.]

INT: Let's talk about relationship with the Assistant Directors, and in both the--on the level of working on television versus the level of working in film.
JR: Well, on film they have much more autonomy in a sense because they have to lay out the board and they tell me where to go next. And I’d always listen because the Assistant has figured things out and I love the Assistant who stays by the camera. That’s very important. Let the Second [Second Assistant Director] do your running around, but the First [First Assistant Director] better stay right near me. Frankly I have a better relationship with the Cinematographer, it’s closer. But in a feature the Assistant is tremendous--well, they're important in every aspect but the Assistant in features is much more your man. In television I remember once I was doing something at Universal [Universal Pictures] TV, I think it was RUN FOR YOUR LIFE, something like that. And it was an--we were going late that night and I was having a little difficulty on a key scene. And I was really talking it over with the actors, trying to get a moment straight. And out of the corner of my eye I noticed my assistant was always on the phone, very nervous. And the assistant said, Universal was noted for having--for reporting in every 15 minutes, “Here’s where we are. We’re two pages behind,” or whatever. Remind me about John Ford and being four pages behind. Yeah, oh, you know that one? He ripped out the pages, “Tell them we’re on schedule.” [INT: We’re on schedule, yeah.] My assistant was on the phone and he came off in great anxiety and he came over, he said, “John, John, you don’t have time to direct this scene.” It was a wonderful line. And I stopped and looked at him and I said, “You know, the day I don’t have time to direct a scene is when you’re out of business.” I said, “You’ll have to trust me to know that I’m spending more time on this scene than you think it might be worth but it’s a key scene. I know how to make it up later and I will.” He said, “Oh, I’m sorry, I’m sorry.” I said, “Tell the front office we will get off today on time and we will. It doesn’t look that way right now but I assure you it’s in my head.” And we got off, you know.

INT: In terms of your own knowledge--and this is a specific question. It does relate to some of your work with Assistants [Assistant Directors] but your own knowledge of your own sense of pacing. And knowing what you can accomplish within a day so that you're able to give yourself--now I realize it’s different for some of these shows that were live shows cause you had to do the whole show. That’s--the day is the show. [JR: That was easy.] But whereas in films it’s different.
JR: I just had it in my head somehow. I knew I had to get going or I could take a little more time. Depends on how the morning goes. Mornings are the most important part for me. For any Director really. Getting started is the biggest thing in the world to me. If the call is eight o'clock I want to be shooting at eight o'clock. The fondness of using the--what we tell the Musicians, “Instruments out of the case and ready to blow at eight o’clock.” And musicians do that. They do all their preparation before. I hate a show where the call is eight o’clock and everybody goes to the coffee pot. I don’t want that. Get your breakfast and come back--Barbara Stanwyck was always in her marks. If the call was nine o’clock she was standing there having been made up, hair done, costumed, lines memorized, standing, literally, in her marks. And I was doing an Elvis Presley movie with Barbara Stanwyck. How’s that for a cunella. Did I tell you this one? And Elvis was late. Now, usually he was pretty good but he was--[INT: You did a couple didn’t you?] I did a couple. Again, that’s the Hal Wallis [Hal B. Wallis]. That’s what ruined me in pictures I think. No, I--it just took too long. Although I loved working with Barbara. I mean, god, she was--what an angel. [INT: So, Presley’s late.] Presley was late but not serious--20 minutes, you know, but serious enough for me because she was standing there and I was furious. So I took him aside and I said, “Listen,” quietly and over in a corner, I said, “I want you to know something.” I said, “That lady standing at her marks was a major star before you were born.” I said, “There she is ready to go,” I said, “If the call is nine o’clock you damn well better be there and show no disrespect to her. Never mind the disrespect to me and the rest of the crew. I don’t want you to be late anymore.” And he never was, you know? “Yes sir Mister Rich, yes sir.” And he was very polite. But that’s the only time I had to read him out and I was furious I must say. And I did it as calmly as I could but it was pretty direct. [INT: Took him aside?] Yeah. [INT: Not in front of anybody?] Oh no. I would not do it in front of everybody. [INT: You know some people do that?] Huh? [INT: Some people do that, you know? There are times when--] I could do that with a lesser Actor I’m afraid. I might have done it, but yeah. Yeah, I'm guilty of that on occasion. Now, on the other hand there's a wonderful story that goes with Billy Wilder working with Marilyn Monroe, and somebody said--and she was chronically late. And who was it--it was--Walter Matthau--we were talking about--no, it was Jack Lemmon who was talking about SOME LIKE IT HOT. Oh, in fact that was Billy Wilder. Of course. And Marilyn would sometimes come on very late because she was scared. She didn’t--she would not come into the arena, so to speak, without having some control over her lines and her attitude and she was scared all the time. And he said that was her way of trying to compensate. Oh, she was miserably late quite a lot, in fact people were very furious with her. And somebody said to Billy Wilder, “Doesn’t it drive you crazy that Marilyn is late all the time?” And he said, “Yeah, it’s annoying. On the other hand,” he said, “I’ve got a cousin Zelda. If I gave her a call she’d be here every morning probably at nine o’clock but Zelda wouldn’t sell two tickets at the box office so I’ll wait for Marilyn.” [INT: I remember--that’s great.] So, there are occasions when--[INT: I remember Marilyn--the story was that he once told, I guess Jack Lemmon--maybe both he and Tony Curtis, he said, “You’re gonna have to get it right all the time because she’s only gonna get it right once.”] Who said this? [INT: This is Billy Wilder to the two of them.] Oh, that’s great. [INT: “You’re gonna have to get it right all the time because she’s only getting it right once.”] Well, that’s wonderful. It’s a great way to put it. Great way to put it. I like that. Who--not dissimilar from the Shelley Winters story I told you. Poor Janet Leigh and Van Johnson. Had to get it right every time while she’d struggle.

INT: Did you find when you were doing the films themselves that you--I guess it’s a strange question, but did you enjoy yourself as much in the film process as--[JR: No.]--you clearly do and did on--
JR: No. I did not. [INT: And do you know why?] It’s tedium. I really want to get on with it. That’s why I really enjoyed ALL IN THE FAMILY because I was back in the trenches and it was every week something brand new, and exciting, and different, and controlling. My control was better. I was much more in control even though I was a controlling Director. I didn't have control over lighting process. It drove me bananas to have to wait for all that painting. And I kept thinking, “Surely we don’t have to do this,” but I guess, in a way, the studio system demanded, and of course the Cinematographers always knew that their bread and butter were always on how good does it look, how good is the star look and of course the stars themselves, particularly the women, they had to look good. And they were magicians, these camera people, camera--Directors of Photography. Magicians with light, but I just constantly saying, “Come on, let’s get on with it.” And I knew I had a rehearsal right and the Actors were getting stale. “Let’s get on with it. Let me get it committed to film.” [INT: It’s interesting too because now the potential, it hasn’t quite happened yet, but the potential of using video as a filmic recording media is beginning to allow for that freedom of performance. Not totally. It’s like Leon Ichaso did a picture about Piñero [Miguel Piñero; film called PIÑERO] I think a couple of years ago. I don’t know if you saw it or not?] No. [INT: But he shot it all--] On video? [INT: Using digital cameras and also 16 millimeter but multiple cameras all the time.] Right. [INT: And I talked to a number of the Actors who worked on it and their excitement was--] Of course. [INT: “We were just--you know--we just do stuff. We didn’t have to wait.”] It’s theater. It is theater. That’s what they seem to me. The rehearsal time--the rehearsal time was gold. I used to love the rehearsals. And I did not like the one day of camera blocking. That was tedious, but shooting it was wonderful because now I was able to put the two together. And it became a kind of a seamless--

INT: Did you ever in this process, you know, did anyone ever approach you from theater and say, “Hey John, do you want to do a play?”
JR: Well, Arthur Penn had me do one just two years ago actually in New York for The Actor’s Studio. It was pro bono. It cost me money. [INT: And? How was the experience?] Oh, it was great. I enjoyed doing it. Yeah, it was a three-hander, and a very serious piece. It was called LIGHTING UP THE TWO-YEAR OLD. It was all about killing horses for profit. Very interesting. By Benjie Aerenson, a young Writer, and we did it for The Actor’s Theater [TACT - The Actors Company Theatre]. It was a limited performance but very, very exciting. They gave my wife Pat [Pat Rich] a chance to unleash one of her great lines with me. Did I ever tell you this story? [INT: Nuh uh.] Well, we were doing the show and I guess it was some time during the run or maybe it was the night before the opening I took the cast, three men, and their wives, to dinner, and my wife Pat joined us. And we had a lovely dinner together. And at one of the--at the beginning of the night one of the women said to me, “John, since you’ve been in New York,” I had been there maybe four--five months now, “What plays have you seen?” And I said, “I’ve seen nothing.” “Really?” I said, “Yes, it’s by design.” “Why?” And I said, “Any city that will support MISS SAIGON for 10 years is not a serious theatrical community.” So, I got my laugh, you know. And then I said--and which by the way I feel. How could you support that play? I mean, it was nonsense. And I said, “Besides I having worked in New York in the 1950s, early, I saw the original MY FAIR LADY. The original GUYS AND DOLLS. The original OKLAHOMA! And Pat said, “The original OUR AMERICAN COUSIN.” Well, of course, everybody at that table knew that that was the night that Lincoln got shot. [INT: Other than that Mr. Lincoln how’d you like the play?] Yeah, but she put me on the floor and I love telling the story because it’s--I gave her a perfect straight line and boy--[INT: She took it.] She hit--[INT: Home run.] Yeah, home run. [INT: Great.] But speaking of straight lines, going back to what I said before about comedy. The straight line is the issue. Like make me a malted rather than--and the best practitioner of that is Rose Marie. And she was what they called a fast talking straight woman. You ever hear that phrase? [INT: Would Gracie [Grace Ethel Cecile Rosalie Allen] be one of those as well or not?] No, no. George [George Burns] was the straight one in that one. [INT: Of course. George would be one of those because he’s fast-talking?] But, no, he was not--by fast talking they didn’t literally mean--no, in his case he was slow talking but the fast talk was you had to be somewhat rapid. But it referred to clarity rather than anything else. You have to make it--the audience will not laugh if it is mystified. You had to be clear as to what the set-up is. And Rose Marie always, always laid it out there so that whoever the comic was--all he had to do was swing. And they were not getting the laugh. She was. I mean, they got the laugh but she set it. And--straight woman. It had to be clarity of speech, enunciation, not a word out of place. Like, Ray Bolger used to come off stage sometimes and say to me, “Why didn't I get a laugh just now?” I said, “Ray, you can’t invert those two words.” It’s as simple as that. You have to be precisely. “Oh, that’s right.” They just inverted two words. [INT: Yeah, I remember you talking about before about the precision.] Did I mention that? Sorry. [INT: No, no, no.] I’m repeating myself. [INT: You’re not repeating yourself. But the point is the precision of humor, there is something to it.] Oh, precision. My God, you’ve got to be. And lean. Don't fool around with extraneous material.

INT: Now, would you get--I’m curious during these three days of rehearsals. Would you get down a road and then--when would you, when would you know--and probably instinct but other can be answered--alright, this is--we've gone too far with this. This is now--
JR: Never. [INT: Tell me what you mean by never.] Polish. Polish some more. You’ll find something else. [INT: So do you think that if you--if it had been allowed five days rehearsal it would have gotten that much better?] No. It's incremental, but you could do a little--it’s just--I’m talking now, tweaking. I'm talking small, and which we do on Monday and Tuesday, we tweak even though we're rehearsing for the cameras and we certainly tweak on the night when we do a run-through for an audience. A show actually for the afternoon audience. And that tells the Actor something they might not have suspected.

INT: Now the issue of audiences. The--do they differ? And what do you do with the difference?
JR: You're helpless. Especially at the beginning of a series you’re really in a very bad spot. Nobody knows what they're coming to so you have to educate a new audience, and the audience does not know the characters. And if they don’t know the characters they're not going to laugh. Again, the mystification process. When the show is a hit then you have to drive them away with sticks because they all want to come. But initially they have audience gatherers. You have companies that actually put together groups. Now sometimes the groups are okay, but God help us if you have a group from a Marine corps base and you got a pretty girl. You can't hear any--you can’t hear the dialogue. The whistles and the shrieks, you know, so you have to retake frequently. Or one night we had--I was getting very strange laughs, and the Actors were going bananas. They would deliver a laugh line and some of the audience would laugh, and then you would have--it would be like a wave. There’d be a secondary laugh. I thought, “What the hell is going on here?” Well, it was a Japanese group. It was being interpreted. They were getting the joke through the interpreter. So, that’s madness when you have that. Or if you have--what was the--I was thinking one day I think we had deaf people? [INT: And they’re signing?] Huh? [INT: And someone was signing?] There was signed. And that--because you talk about mangling the joke. How do you get the joke in sign language? I mean, it’s tough enough. Or I would--when I was doing BENSON I was amazed. I was invited to Israel because it was the most popular show in Israel that time. I was invited to give talks back there. And they loved BENSON. And I was amazed when I saw the show--now I used to use very rapid--relatively rapid timing for my shows. This show had, Benson of course and the cast talking English, but they had Hebrew and Arabic subtitles over the screen. [INT: And?] And, at the same time. Well, you couldn't see the faces. [INT: Great. Oh, it was literally over the screen?] Yeah. And how could they translate rapid-fire English idiom into Hebrew and Arabic at the same--because it was popular in Jordan, or Egypt, or wherever the signal went. It was just--it was amazing but they loved it, you know? I guess they listened.

INT: Did you--in--ever deal with a laugh tracks and those shows that did what was that about?
JR: I hate the laugh track. [INT: Now, did you ever have a show where it was part of the show?] Yeah. [INT: And how did you handle it?] Badly. [INT: Well, talk about it. I mean could--] Well, the first time I ran into it was I MARRIED JOAN, Joan Davis. We shot without an audience, three-camera film. There at least they played the film back to an audience and they recorded that laugh. The problem was we could not possibly gauge the correct timing, there’s that word again, what the Actors line and the laugh--if you got a really big laugh the next couple of lines are muted or the Sound Technician has to dial the audience down and the--[INT: And the dialogue up.]--soundtrack up, and you know that that immediately says this is phony because an audience doesn’t sound like that. It doesn’t sound modulated. So that was one issue. Then we had THE DICK VAN DYKE SHOW, it was much more honest. We had an audience and I did very, very little editing. And no laugh track unless you had to take out something. That’s interesting because in two cases I had to remove big laughs. One was Sammy Davis [Sammy Davis Jr.] kissing Archie [Archie Bunker played by Carroll O’Conner] because that laugh--they’d still be laughing. It was the longest laugh I’d ever heard in show business. The other laugh was on an episode called THAT'S MY BOY?? [Episode of THE DICK VAN DYKE SHOW] Was written by Persky [Bill Persky] and Denoff [Sam Denoff], their first effort. You remember the show? [INT: I don’t but I remember those guys, sure.] Well, they had given an episode which was just pure gold in which Rob [role of Rob Petrie], Dick Van Dyke, is convinced that the baby that has just been born to him and Laura [Laura Petrie played by Mary Tyler Moore] that the baby he’s brought home doesn't look like either one of them and therefore he’s got the wrong baby. And it’s like an anxiety that many parents go through. And he had evidence to prove it because there was a couple down the hall, she was in Room 203 and they were in Room 208, and as Dick in his frenzy would say, “You take a three, you close it up, it becomes an eight. And she was getting your prunes and you were getting her tapioca pudding.” And back and forth, back and forth and all the pseudo evidence that they had the wrong child. Dick was convinced, Mary’s saying, “You’re crazy.” And at one point when--what was it? Oh, flowers--they had brought home flowers from the hospital and she said, “By the way, who are those flowers from?” And Dick went over and he picked up the card. He said, “Congratulations Dick and Betty Carter.” And the both went, “Ah.” And they have puzzled looks. They don't know--she said, “I don’t know--do you know who Dick and Betty Carter are?” And Dick said, "The only Dick and Betty Carter I know are Phil and Edna Greenbaum." I love that line. That’s a Carl Reiner special. Isn’t that a wonderful line? [INT: Perfect.] The only Dick and Betty Carter I know are Phil and Edna Greenbaum. [INT: Perfect.] That’s wonderful. And that’s more evidence that the flowers were meant for the other party. Dick gets on the phone and he telephones these people and it's a one-way monologue, you only hear his side of the conversation, and he keeps getting interrupted. He says, “Yes, I am a comedy writer. What? Why are you laughing? This is no laughing matter. You got her figs, well we got your flowers, and something else.” You know, back and forth. “Oh, you’re coming by? Good. Well, bring the figs and we’ll give you the flowers, and bring back you know what.” You know, they want to exchange babies. [INT: Of course.] And the doorbell rings and when Dick opens it up he jumps back in surprise. It’s a black couple. And it’s--when I cast that I very carefully cast--don’t let me block this name please. A wonderful actor. [INT: It wasn’t Harry.] Greg Morris. [INT: Right. Oh yeah.] And Mimi Dillard. Two of the most handsome, young black people I could find and all I said to them was--oh, there was such a controversy about the show CBS [CBS Broadcasting Inc.] did not want to put it on, Phil and Edna Greenbaum didn’t want it, Proctor and Gamble said, “We’ll not sponsor it.” It was 1963, they were afraid of racial tension. [INT: Sure. Of course.] They were bombing kids in Birmingham [Alabama]. And Carl [Carl Reiner] and Sheldon [Sheldon Leonard], God bless them. They said, “Look, we'll do the show, if the audience on the night tells us it’s objectionable we will pay for it. You don’t have to sponsor it and we won’t put it on. But if the audience says it’s alright we’re gonna put it on.” Well, all I told Greg and Mimi was, “Don’t speak. Just come in smiling. And don’t speak for--just really let it happen. Don't talk too soon.” And Dick was reacting off stage to what he sees and he backed off, and they entered, and there was a gasp from the audience. And then the longest sustained laugh and applause you’ve ever heard. Very, very, very much accepting and--but it was so long we had to cut it down. We had to cut that laugh apart. And that’s--so we gotta do a little laugh track smoothing out. I didn't even like to do that but I don’t think we ever added anything unless we had a really bumpy insert we’d have to do it and then we’d use our own audience. Where in the other shows, Charlie Douglas had that magic black box. Did you know him? He’s the one who invented the laugh track machine, and I remember he had--[INT: Now was he a sound guy or what?] He was a sound man. And he had created some--a mystery box and he’d never let anybody look into it but you know they had little things in there. And once in a while a tape would get snarled I guess, things would stop and Charlie played it with keys on the top, adding a little chuckle here or titter there. And he was a masterful I tell you. But he would always, if there was a problem, he would excuse himself and go into locked room. And I once did a parody of what’s going on behind that room. “Don't do this to me. Do you realize that I’ve got these people out there that are waiting for you?” You know, talking to these people in box. [INT: Right, all the 12 live--] It’s, “Stop it.” [INT: The little people.] You know, “You. Particularly you. You’re embarrassing me.” [INT: That’s great.] And then he would come out and all smiles and the thing would be fixed. And--but it was the same audience of dead people that were laughing at all those shows. You know, they’d been recorded centuries before. Some of them were Mel Brooks--the film--when he did a play called QUEEN ALEXANDRA AND MURRAY. Do you remember that? [INT: No, well, I remember the title.] Well it was in the 2000 year old man. Carl was talking about Shakespeare and he said to the 2000 year old man, Mel, “Did you know William Shakespeare?” He said, “Of course,” he says, “What a pussy cat but a bad writer, a terrible writer.” “What do you mean a terrible writer?” He said, “You should see he made blocks,” he said, “an ‘F’ looks like an ‘S’,” and he talked about Elizabethan writing as if it was a handicap. “Terrible writer.” You know? And then Carl said, “Well, in all of Shakespeare’s 36 plays--“ He says, “37.” He said, “No, sorry, it was 36.” He says, “He wrote 37 plays.” He says, “Well, I don’t think history’s recorded that.” “Sure it did,” and he said, “I had money in this play.” [INT: QUEEN ALEXANDRA AND MURRAY.] He said, “What was it called?” “It was called QUEEN ALEXANDRA AND MURRAY. It closed in Egypt.” And Carl said, “Well, do you remember any of the dialogue?” And he said, “Sure,” he says, “What hole Murray,” you know and he went into jargon.